Peasant v Natwest - No CCA **WON**

[revolting peasant]

Just about a year ago I requested a copy of an agreement from NatWest (correct letter & fee paid etc). Correspondence has bounced back and forth for the whole 12 months and still no agreement has been forthcoming.

My wife and I have no recollection of signing any agreement and the fact that neither we nor NatWest have a copy would bear this out.

On Saturday I got a letter from the bank which I will summarise.

Dear Mr Peasant

Thank you for your patience.........I am sorry that you have been unhappy with our previous responses.

The Bank has been unable to provide you with a signed copy of the loan agreement and you have asked that in the absence of this, the Bank takes the following actions;-

Provides a signed copy of the agreement

Removes the default registered against both yourself and your wife until such time as the signed agreement can be provided.

Ceases making telephone calls to you (sic) home, mobile or any number on which the Bank is aware you or your wife can be contacted on.

I have now had the opportunity to review your complaint and there is little I can add to what has previously been said.

I regret that I am unable to provide you with a copy of the signed Loan agreement but cannot agree to your requests.

I know it is more than 56 days since you first brought your complaint to the Bank and I am sorry that we have been unable to resolve it to your complete satisfaction.

It then goes on to invite me to refer the matter to the fos or if I wish to pursue the matter through litigation, gives me the Bishopsgate address and ends with "I have advised our Group Litigation Department of your case"

The following day, I got a letter from a firm of solicitors advising that they have been instructed by NatWest to commence proceedings against me "in respect of an unpaid liability". It's not subtle and threatens to obtain a security order against my property which they wil then take possession of and sell, obtain an attachment of earnings order and collect payment direct from my employer (could be difficult as I'm self employed) or apply for bankruptcy/sequestration.

I don't know where to go with this now so all advice gratefully received.

Thanks
Revolting Peasant

[steven4064]

Originally Posted by revolting peasant

It .. threatens to obtain a security order against my property which they wil then take possession of and sell, obtain an attachment of earnings order and collect payment direct from my employer (could be difficult as I'm self employed) or apply for bankruptcy/sequestration.
Revolting Peasant

To do any of these things requires a court order and to get a court order they need an enforceable agreement which they admit they cannot produce. They are bluffing. They hope they can trick you into paying up and/or otherwsie acknoweldging the debt.

I would write to them along the following lines.

Thank you for your letter of date. Since, by you own admission, you have not been able to produce a copy of an executed agreement for the alleged debt within the statutory period set down in the Consumer Credit Act 1974, the alleged debt is unenforceable by virtue of s77(4) of the Act and further, under the same section, you have commited an offence.

Since you cannot demonstrate that I am the debtor associated with the alleged debt, all collection activity is unlawful under the CCA 1974 and contrary to the OFT guidelines on debt collection. I intend to make these facts known to the Financial Ombudsman, the Office of Fair Trading and my local Trading Standards Office. If you persist in taking legal action against me for the alleged debt, I will also make them known to the court. Section 127 (3) of the CCA 1974 forbids a court issuing an enforcement order in the absence of an executed agreement.

This letter also constitutes notice under s10 of the Data Protection Act 1998 that you must not process data concerning me in relation to the alleged debt or, if you have processed data already, you must cease. This includes, but is not limited to, passing any data to third parties such as Cedit Reference Agencies.

On [date] you placed a default marker against my credit history with a number of credit reference agencies in reference to the alleged debt. Since no agreement exists between us, you have no permission from me to process data concerning me and you are in violation of the data protection principles including but not limited to Schedule 1 Part 1 (1) of the Data Protection Act 1998. I will be reporting this matter to the Information Commissioner and request and require that you remove said default marker(s) from my credit history. I shall be seeking compensation under s13 of the Data Protection Act 1998 for the distress you have caused me by your financial defamation of me.

Yours sincerely

peasant

do not sign the letter - there have been cases of unscrupulous lenders using the signature off such letters to manufacture an excuted agreement. Send the letter to the person who sent the letter you quote above and copy it (with that letter attached) to NatWets' solicitors (Cobbetts by any chance?). Make sure the letter hs the NatWest and Solicitors references on it.

Have they issued any default notices in relation to this alleged debt? If, so you need to include something demanding that they remove them.

[revolting peasant]

Thanks for that Steven - very helpful.

There were default notices issued in amongst the rather protracted correspondence that has passed between me and them. Do you have any suggestions as to how I could word the demand for the removal of the default?

It's not Cobbetts. It's a firm called Greens in Telford. I've read lots about Cobbetts but I haven't seen anything about this firm before

[steven4064]

Originally Posted by revolting peasant

There were default notices issued in amongst the rather protracted correspondence that has passed between me and them. Do you have any suggestions as to how I could word the demand for the removal of the default?

I have added a paragraph to the above letter. This letter is a first shot across the bows - no doubt there will be further correspondence. Ulimately, you may have to take them to court so keep all correspondence (filed neatly), if you haven't already.

[revolting peasant]

Thanks again Steven - everything is filed in chronological order so if it comes to it I can produce it all.

With regards to reporting to the information commissioner, how do I go about doing that and what will it achieve?

[steven4064]

Originally Posted by revolting peasant

Thanks again Steven - everything is filed in chronological order so if it comes to it I can produce it all.

With regards to reporting to the information commissioner, how do I go about doing that and what will it achieve?

Probably not a lot but it is the right thing to do when someone violates the Data Protection Act. Send them this form

[revolting peasant]

Does that not lay me open to acknowledging the debt?

[steven4064]

No - the whole issue is that they have communicted personal information about you when they had no right to do so because they have no agreement - ie because there is no debt. If there were an agreement there would be a debt and they wouldn't have contravened the Data Protection Act.

[revolting peasant]

I've written to NatWest using the Template provided (thanks again Steven), with a copy to Green and Co requesting that they desist from correspondence until such time as the bank remedies it's legal breaches.

I'll let you know what happens

[revolting peasant]

Originally Posted by revolting peasant

It's not Cobbetts. It's a firm called Greens in Telford.

A bit of digging tells me that Green and Co have exactly the same address as RBS Credit Management Services. That wouldn't be just coincidence now would it?

[revolting peasant]

Stunningly quick reply from NatWest. It only took 2 days!

The individual dealing with my case is unable to deal with my case and has passed it to her colleagues in Edinburgh for a "final decision" which I can then take to the fos if I'm not happy with it.

Wait and see then!

[revolting peasant]

I've had a "final response" from NatWest today.

It summarises my complaint and then goes on:-

"I acknowledge that we have been unable to provide you with a copy of the loan agreement signed by both you and your wife. Despite this I consider that we can reasonably demonstrate that funds of £XXXX were credited to your account on XXXXXXXXX and that they repaid a previous loan of £XXX.XX that same day. I therefore belive that we are justified in pursuing you for the debt. In addition as we can show that the debt is associated with you then we have every right to register a default with a Credit Reference Agency if you fail to repay that debt. I am therefore unwilling to pay you any compensation or remove the default marker.

It concludes by advising that this completes the bank's complaint investigation procedure and that they hope I am able to accept their decision, if not I can go to the fos.

Any thoughts on where I go from here?

[steven4064]

From what is on this thread, I understand that you are saying is that this debt is not yours and must, therefore, belong to someone else. that being the case, it would be interesting to to see how NatWest "reasonably demonstrate that funds of £XXXX were credited to your account on XXXXXXXXX and that they repaid a previous loan of £XXX.XX that same day".

As part of your corroespondence, did you send them a Subject access request under s7 of the Data Protection Act? Or, do you have bank statements covering the period in question?

There are several options:

1) send a Subject access request for all information they hold on you including, but not limited to, copies of all bank statements. See if there really is evidence to demonstrtate.... as they state in their letter.

2) take them to court under ss10(4), 13(1) & (2)(a) and s14(1) of the Data Protection Act 1998 if you are sure the debt really is not yours

3) do as they suggest and go to the fos

[revolting peasant]

I have statements covering the period and they are correct in stating that the funds were credited but they were removed again on the same day.

There isn't, and never has been a CCA agreement relating to this amount.

[steven4064]

Originally Posted by revolting peasant

I have statements covering the period and they are correct in stating that the funds were credited but they were removed again on the same day.

So was that a bank error or what?

[revolting peasant]

Yes I suppose it was - I had discussed a new loan with them but never actually signed an agreement.

[steven4064]

In that case, I guess either option 2) or 3) in post #13 is the way forward

[WendyB]

So you never had this money, did not pay off a previous loan with it? Are you saying that NatWest credited your account wrongly, then realised their mistake and took it back out again? If this is the case then it would appear to me to be bank error.

[revolting peasant]

No - what I am saying is that NatWest repaid the previous loan with a new loan of an amount almost identical to the settlement figure on the existing loan without having a signed agreement from myself and my wife. In a nutshell, they settled the existing loan (which was not in arrears and still had 2 years to run) with a new "loan" without my consent.

[steven4064]

Originally Posted by revolting peasant

No - what I am saying is that NatWest repaid the previous loan with a new loan of an amount almost identical to the settlement figure on the existing loan without having a signed agreement from myself and my wife. In a nutshell, they settled the existing loan (which was not in arrears and still had 2 years to run) with a new "loan" without my consent.

How does this tie in with what you wrote in post #14?

Did you keep on paying the original loan? How long ago was this?