Egg's CCA shennannigans

[andypoth]

I sent Egg a CCA request on the 17th April (to their Registered Office) and after hearing nothing last Friday sent them a default notice via their secure message service, which was followed up by a special delivery hard copy.

I had a response acknowledging the complaint earlier this week, advising me that it had been passed to the relevant department and they would be in touch.

Yesterday I received the email saying that my statement was ready so went online, and of course they have added interest despite my disputing the account last week, so I sent them another secure message advising them that they should not have added interest as the account is in dispute, that they won't be receiving a penny until resolved and just go ahead and try and default me/record adverse information and see what happens!

Today had an response (probably to first secure message) with my name spelt incorrectly saying that they hadn't received my request and it should have been sent to their data department, and telling me to resubmit my request with another £1 payment. I replied telling them they had received my initial CCA request and it was their problem if their internal mail can't manage to pass things to the right department.

What's my next step? I've already cancelled the direct debit and changed my phone numbers to nonsense so they have to write to me.

[Steward]

You can use Google to search the web using these links below:-

[steven4064]

I think you just need to wait a bit nd see what happnes. Is this a credit card? If so, you will probbaly be sent a copy of a completly unenfoirceable credit card agreement.

See http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...greements.html

[andypoth]

Just to be sure of my facts, I dug out the Recorded Mail counterfoils for the CCA request letters I sent. Although I'm not sure exactly which one corresponds to which letter. I sent three CCA requests (one to HSBC, one to GE Money or whatever they are today, and one to Egg) and have had responses from GE and HSBC. I assumed Egg were perhaps snowed under.

Anyway, of the three Track & Trace numbers, two have been delivered and the third shows that it was accepted at the post office in Portsmouth where I posted it, on the date it was posted. What does this mean? Logic would suggest that the two delivered were to HSBC and GE and the letter to Egg is missing in the post somewhere. So I guess I need to speak to Royal Mail tomorrow (though probably a waste of time!) and start again with Egg. Except I have already sent them a default notice... However, if Egg were to send me a default notice by post, they would just send it first class and assume it arrived two days later wouldn't they? So surely I can do the same (or could have done if I hadn't used Recorded Mail, as I would be perjuring myself if in Court I denied knowing that the letter wasn't received)

[HammyUK]

My tracking number for Egg showed as accepted but nothing else yet Egg had it on file as being "queued" and told me so in a phone call - then 2 days later the identification request letter showed up. Funny that.

[steven4064]

If Royal Mail have failed to deliver it you can claim £37

[andypoth]

How do I do that - do I fill in the online lost/delayed items form and post it to them?

[steven4064]

I presume so

[andypoth]

I had another secure message from Egg this morning:

Dear Andrew

A copy of your original credit agreement with the electronic signature is available to view and print online.

To access this please follow the below instructions:

* Click on 'Your money'.
* Click 'view' to the right of your Egg Card balance.
* Click on 'Credit agreements' at the bottom of the box on the left of the page that comes up.
* Now just follow the on-screen instructions.

This webpage can be printed like any other by using the usual internet browser print function.

Please call our Collections Team regarding your Egg Card on 08456 000 296.

They're open Monday to Friday 8am until 9pm and Saturday/Sunday 8am until 4pm.

If you've already spoken to our Collections Team, then please disregard this message.

You may want to make sure we've got up to date contact details for you. To do this, please follow the instructions below:

* Go to the 'Personal details' tab at the top of this page.
* Select the relevant option for the details you'd like to change.

If your details are up to date it will help us to contact you in the future.

Regards

Mark Robinson
Internet Customer Services

I thought this was a little interesting, seeing as they were claiming not to have received the request last week. So I followed the instructions to the letter, and got this message from the website:

You have no online agreements available for
viewing. If you have a query about an agreement, please refer to the
documents we sent out for you to sign.

So there's nothing there to look at, and even if there was, I don't think this would satisfy the CCA request.

[andypoth]

...and have now had another secure message telling me to write to their Data Team in Derby enclosing a £1 payment. So first they tell me they haven't received the letter, then they tell me the credit agreement is ready for viewing, then tell me to write again!

Shall I just write again to sort this one way or another?

[andypoth]

Right, I have decided to start again with Egg as it seems likely that they didn't receive my original letter.

I'm going to try a different approach, and send them both a SAR and CCA request, my logic being that the SAR might yield more than the CCA request, but the time limit for the CCA request is tighter and that will enable me to put the account into default more quickly. I'm also not sure if SAR'ing them will allow a default if they don't respond within 12 days.

It's interesting that they've told me that I've written to the wrong address to request this information, as strictly speaking any and all documents can be served by sending them to their Company Secretary at the Registered Office. I know that for many small companies the Company Sec may be e.g. a solicitor or accountant paid a retainer and the registered office is their practice address, but surely this won't be the case for Egg.

I'm going to continue sending stuff to their company secretary anyway as this will a. slow down their responses, possibly pushing them outside statutory timescales, and b. avoid them arguing at any later date that any documents weren't properly served because they weren't sent to the Company Secretary at the Registered Office. And Egg can like it or lump it.

[andypoth]

Have sent of to Egg today a SAR and CCA request, £11 postal order and proof of ID because I know they'll ask for it as a stalling tactic. Went special delivery, so I guess it can be deemed to be served tomorrow. So let's see what happens.

[andypoth]

Have now received my CCA from Egg dating from early 2003, looks like it has the "approved limit" mistake in it, and a load of T&Cs. I'll scan them in a bit and post them here, but my pizza has just arrived.

I have yet to receive the other information specified in the SAR; the covering letter with the CCA said that they couldn't send copy statements as I hadn't paid the £10 fee (I had in fact sent a PO for £11!). After phoning them some call-centre worker bee said that they could make a seperate charge for the DSIR and one for the statements, after speaking to a supervisor that was changed. Have yet to receive anything else though. Can't be bothered to chase them, so will just wait for 40 days and then complain to ICO.

[steven4064]

Scan the pizza instead - it'll be as much use

[andypoth]

Here's my scans finally - wasn't easy to remove all the mozarella from the document feeder...

Image hosting, free photo sharing & video sharing at Photobucket

All comments gratefully received - I think my next step is to send Egg a default notice stating that the agreement is unenforceable because it does not contain the prescribed terms etc. and then stop paying. Am I right?

Andy

[steven4064]

It is too small to read the actual type but it looks like a 'standard' Egg agreement, presumably with the 'approved limit' error which makes it unenforceable in our opinion

[andypoth]

Haven't quite cracked Photobucket yet then! I've now attached the same stuff as a PDF instead and this definitely should be readable.

[andypoth]

Sent the following to Egg as a secure message and will send a hard copy by Special Delivery:

Ref: Account XXXX XXXX XXXX XXXX - IN DISPUTE

Please note that a hard copy of this letter will also be sent to your Company Secretary at your registered office.

I recently received your response to my letter requesting both a copy of the Credit Agreement for this account. I am still waiting for you to comply with my Subject access request under the Data Protection Act.

I have to point out that, whilst Egg may feel they have complied with my earlier request for a copy of the agreement relating to this account, pursuant to s78 and even considering the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Cancellation Notices & Copies of Documents) Regulations 1983, the document provided as an alleged agreement does not comply with the requirements of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 Section 61(1) and Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 Schedule 6 in that not all the ?prescribed terms? are contained within the document and it is thus not properly executed, inter alia:

* The term approved or individual is not a prescribed term
* There is no rate of interest stated for cash advances
* There is no reference to 'charges on default'


It is the lack of correct prescribed and other required terms in an improperly executed agreement that is a very clear default, not necessarily your response to my s78 request and it is for these reasons that I DISPUTE the alleged agreement.

In that respect I draw your attention to CCA 1974 s127(3): The court shall not make an enforcement order under section 65(1) if section 61(1)(a) (signing of agreements) was not complied with unless a document (whether or not in the prescribed form and complying with regulations under section 60(1)) itself containing all the prescribed terms of the agreement was signed by the debtor or hirer (whether or not in the prescribed manner).

You should note that in the opinion of the Office of Fair Trading, creditors should not suggest that they have a signed compliant credit agreement where they are unable to provide evidence to support this ? to do so could be a ?misleading action? under Reg.5 of the Consumer Protection From Unfair Trading Regulations.

You are reminded that the following applies in relation to this alleged agreement whilst it is in dispute.

You:
* are not entitled, while the dispute continues, to enforce the agreement.
* may not demand any payment on the account, nor am I obliged to offer any payment to you.
* may not add further interest or any charges to the account.
* may not pass the account to a third party.
* may not register any information in respect of the account with any credit reference agency.
* may not issue a default notice related to the account.

Please note: You should consider this letter as notice under section 10 of the Data Protection Act (1998 ) to cease processing, with immediate effect, any data in relation to this account, both within your own internal records and records with any third party agencies, that may cause substantial damage or substantial distress to me or to another.

In clarification: To register information with a credit reference agency, you must have written consent from the data subject to collate and share such information. This consent is given in the form of a signed and compliant credit agreement and is a clear requirement of the Data Protection Act 1998, so until you produce such an agreement, you may not share my data. Any attempts to share my data without my consent will be met with a complaint to the Information Commissioners Office. You may also note that sharing my data with credit reference agencies whilst an account is in dispute is contrary The Banking Code para. 13.6.

If you do issue a default notice against a disputed agreement or persist in sharing my data with third parties regarding a disputed agreement, I may instigate court proceedings to have the alleged agreement declared unenforceable, the default removed and the information removed from my credit file.

I would be happy for you contact me in writing with your intentions to resolve this matter, which remains a formal complaint. In the absence of a signed compliant agreement, I would again invite you to consider reducing any alleged debt to £0 and enter a ?Full and final settlement? as discharged on the alleged account and with any third parties, or contact me further to agree a mutually acceptable resolution.

I would ask you to note that I will not enter into any communication regarding this matter except in writing by post and after taking advice, I am of the opinion that any continued pursuit of communication other than the manner I have respectfully requested may be in violation of the Administration of Justice Act 1970 section 40 as well as breaching the OFT Collection Guidelines.

To sum up, I am not obliged to make any further payments to you until you provide me with a copy of a properly executed agreement. Should you not have a properly executed agreement in relation to this alleged debt, please confirm this in writing to me. If you do have a properly executed agreement there is no reason why you should not allow me sight of it in order to resolve this dispute.

I would appreciate your due diligence in this matter and I look forward to your reply in the first instance but definitely within 14 days from receipt of this letter.

[andypoth]

Received the following response to my previous message yesterday:

Dear Mr XXXXXXXXXX

To ensure you receive a swift answer to your query about your account, please call our Collections Team on 08456 000 296.

They're open Monday to Friday 8am until 9pm and Saturday/Sunday 8am until 4pm.

If you've already spoken to our Collections Team, then please disregard this message.

You may want to make sure we've got up to date contact details for you. To do this, please follow the instructions below:

* Go to the 'Personal details' tab at the top of this page.
* Select the relevant option for the details you'd like to change.

If your details are up to date it will help us to contact you in the future.

Thanks for your message.

Regards

Scott Bemrose
Internet Customer Services

--

Secure Messages - Client Care

And I have responded with:

Further to the secure message I received earlier today, please be advised that I will not deal with this matter by phone, only by email or in writing. I feel that this will be in both our interests as it reduces the likelihood of misunderstandings. Further I have not been impressed in the past by the service I have received when I have called you. I will not be calling your collections department as requested. I would therefore request that my previous message is forwarded to your collection team in order for them to suspend any further action on this account until the dispute has been resolved, and invite them to contact me by e-mail/secure message or in writing if they need to discuss this matter further. Please note that if any further action relating this account (including adding interest, default charges, serving a default notice or providing information to any third party) is not permitted while the account is in dispute and may render you liable to civil and/or criminal proceedings.

Let's see what happens.

[andypoth]

Yet another pointless reply received today; can the staff at Egg read and understand English as this doesn't seem relevant to my complaint anyway:

Dear XXXXXX

I'm sorry to hear about your current circumstances regarding your financial situation. (What? I haven't told them anything about my financial situation?)

Wherever possible, we'll always look to help you through this stressful time.

However my department Egg Card Servicing is unable to help with your account.

To ensure you receive a answer to your query about your account, please call our Collections Team on 0845 6000 296.

They're open Monday to Friday 08.00 till 21.00 and Saturday to Sunday 09.00 till 18.00.

Thanks for your message.

Regards

Sian Fleming
Internet Customer Services


So I have now replied with this:

Further to my earlier emails, if your department is unable to deal with the issues I have raised, please forward my messages to the relevant department. I WILL NOT CONTACT THE COLLECTIONS DEPARTMENT BY TELEPHONE and would request that they contact me by email or in writing. You have both my postal address and email address. I do not wish to deal with this matter over the telephone to reduce the likelihood of any misunderstandings.

Kind regards

Andy Pothecary

I'll probably go round in circles like this now, but I am not backing down and phoning their Collections Department. What do I do next? Currently I am a few days to a week overdue with a payment but prior to that the account was up-to-date and hadn't been assigned.

[andypoth]

Another reply from Egg this morning:
Dear Mr X

There?s a delay in obtaining DSIR (Data Subject Information Requests) due to the volume received recently relating to other matters.

I appreciate there?s a timescale to supply this and I?m sure that will still be adhered to. Sending your request to Canada Square will only have served to delay the process even further.

To progress your request, in writing, please communicate in the first instance to the following address.

Customer Relations Office
Egg Banking
Riverside Road
Pride Park
Derby
DE99 3GG

Once you?re in receipt of the response, you?ll have a direct contact for all future communications. This may include the e-mail media should you wish.

You may use the above address to communicate regarding the balance and any payments. However should you wish to do this separately directly with the team responsible for this, please use the following address.

Collections Team - Derby
Egg Banking
Riverside Road
Pride Park
Derby
DE99 3GG

Thanks for your message.

Regards

Jean Hardy
Internet Customer Services
My Reply:

Thank you for your message. I will wait for the Collections Department to contact me once as they should by now have my original message.

I am unsure what exactly is meant by your references to the DSIR. As a legal communication it should have been sent to your registered office then forwarded to the relevant department in your internal systems. I fail to understand why you need me to communicate in writing to your Customer Relations Office, as you have already received the request. The request was sent with the statutory £10 fee and a Credit Agreement Request ( fee for that) in the same envelope. I have received the copy Credit Agreement, therefore you must have received as well the Subject access request and have 40 days to respond IN FULL with the information requested or else I will be making a complaint to the Information Commissioner's Office. You received the request on 12th June 2009 and therefore your 40 days will expire on 22nd July (i.e. one week on Wednesday) There are no exceptions to the 40-day limit and if you cannot cope with the volume of requests received I would suggest that you might wish to engage some temporary staff to help manage this.

Kind regards

So I'm a bit unsure as to what my next steps should be. I'll give Egg all of next week to get the SAR info back to me, and failing that will complain to the ICO a fortnight today. However, in terms of the credit agreement, I have sent Egg the letter quite a few posts above saying that it is unenforcable etc. but this doesn't appear to have sunk in. Should I just wait for the time being and see what they do is there something else I could/should do instead?