Cabot and Vanquis dont know their posterior from their ....

[seriously fed up]

Had a letter from Cabot this morning in response to a s78 request that I made of them at the end of last year (pdf attached). This concerned a Vanquis card that I took out at the end of 2007/ early 2008. Cabot have included a letter from Vanquis confirming that I applied on line (see pdf 02) so what they have is a set of T&Cs along with a screen print of my personal details, which is headed "digital signature Application". So far so bad. BUT ....
Before the account was flogged by Vanquis to Cabot - pretty sure with a default notice though there was a notice of assignment - I had done a s78 on Vanquis and that time all they sent was a copy of "the executed agreement", which is no more than a copy of the T&Cs (unsigned it goes without saying) and no mention of how I might have applied for the card online (pdf 03). So, am I right in thinking that they have to stand by what they sent the first time (which doesnt mention any online application and has no signatures - just a list of T&Cs), and does this make any difference?
Any advice welcomed - suppose someone who knows about online applications
SFU

[Steward]

You can use Google to search the web using these links below:-

[seriously fed up]

politely bumped
any povs out there?

[IdaInFife]

no2 is corrupt - can you repost it

[seriously fed up]

that better?

[IdaInFife]

you said you had t and c's unsigned but i cant see them in the pdf?

[seriously fed up]

this pdf has the "notice of variation" and t&cs that Cabot sent today. Then there are the T&Cs that Vanquis sent in reply to my s78 request back in March (they replied on 1st May).
The two sets of T&Cs look identical to me and the prescribed terms are in both right up front. I suppose what I am really asking here is whether the variation in responses - and in particular the failure to refer to the application having been made online - makes any difference to their position. I THINK I read somewhere that when they respond to a s78 that is what they have to stand by? Is that wrong? If its not, does it make any difference?

[IdaInFife]

no they don't have to 'stand by' what they sent

normally and online agreement is a basic printout/screenshot of your application and has little tick boxes rather than sigs

[seriously fed up]

think what i will do is SAR them, as i dont recall a default or termination notice on this one - just the notice of assignment to Cabot. Who would I write to? Is it the original lender or Cabot (who own the debt)?
Thanks for your time. Appreciate it

[IdaInFife]

no probs SFU

the original lender

Ida x

[seriously fed up]

another little development. As I said I am going to send Vanquis a SAR, so i was looking about my documents to find another SAR request (and just change the names, dates etc) and guess what popped up? Yep a SAR that I had sent to Vanquis back on 4th November last year that they have never responded to. Any words of wisdom from anywhere about what to do about this? I really dont remember them ever doing a default notice or a termination notice - that's what I am focusing on here.
Ta
SFU

[IdaInFife]

template 2

http://www.consumerforums.com/resour...mplate-letters-

[seriously fed up]

OK, so it looks somewhat more complicated than I had thought. Tbh, I hadnt remembered sending them a SAR but came across this in my letters directory and have cross referenced that date with the £10 fee going through the bank. I have an acknowledgement from Vanquis (dated 5 days after the request would be made) but they dont refer to is a SAR - they dont actually refer to it as anything other than an enquiry.
At the same time, I wrote to Cabot (4th November) advising them that I put a SAR into Vanquis, but also making reference to never having received a letter of assignment. Sure enough later on I got a letter of assignment from Vanquis dated 20th November for an account that they had sold on to Cabot on the 1st October (ie more than 7 weeks earlier).
What they sent me on friday is

1. a letter from Cabot headed Information under the Consumer Credit Act saying that the information they were sending satisfied the Act's requirements and that they would now recommence collection
2. digital sig application - i have not put this up as if i take out the personal data there woudlnt be anything left.
3. a set of t&cs for Vanquis
4. a print out - which I have to assume is from Cabot as it runs from 2nd October to 2nd February, showing that they are adding £3.21 to the total every month.

What they seem to have done is accidentally (or accidentally on purpose????) treated my SAR as a s78. This is despite the fact that in both letters (the request to Vanquis and the copy to Cabot) I think I made it pretty clear to them what I was after.

The letter to Vanquis is set out below;

Data Protection Act 1998
Subject Access Request

Please supply me with copies of all the data which you hold on me in relation to any matter and in any form and for any period of time. Note too that I require disclosure of any or all the personal data which you hold on me for the entire period of my dealings with you. The Subject Access Request is not limited to my transaction history and it is not limited to merely 6 years of historical information.
Additionally, where there has been any event in my account history over this period which has required manual intervention by any member of your staff, or any other person, I require disclosure of any indication or notes which have either caused or resulted in that manual intervention, or other evidence of that manual intervention in relation to my banking business with you. If there has been no such manual intervention, then please be so kind as to confirm this in your response.

I enclose the statutory maximum fee of £10. You have 40 days in which to comply. Furthermore, if I discover that you have levied disproportionate penalties or charges which are invalid under the Unfair Terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations against me, then I shall be reclaiming them together with any interest charges which you have levied on them.
If there is specific information which you require in order to satisfy yourself as to my identity, please let me know by return. However, please note that the above address is the one which you normally use to communicate my private business to me and which you have hitherto found to be acceptable.
Yours faithfully,

I also sent them £10 which was cashed before their acknowledgement letter was even written!


The covering letter (with a copy of the above) sent to Cabot reads
I ACKNOWLEDGE NO DEBT TO YOUR COMPANY. without prejudice
I refer to your letter of 29th October, from which I note that you are approaching Vanquis re certain documents appertaining to the above account. However, please be advised that I have today written to Vanquis with a Subject Access Request under the Data Protection Act 1998. Vanquis will have forty days to respond to this request and until such time as they do respond I consider the account to be in dispute.
I also note from your correspondence your assertion that Cabot Financial purchased the alleged debt from Vanquis on 1st October 2009. However to date I have not received
· Any default or termination notice from Vanquis.
· A notice of assignment from Vanquis to Cabot, or anyone else.
I therefore have no evidence that the account has been either terminated and/or transferred to anyone else. Therefore, unless or until, I receive information which proves (rather than asserts) this, I am not convinced that Cabot Financial has any locus in this matter whatsoever. Therefore, it appears to me that at the moment, there is nothing to be discussed between us.
Until you are able to produce this evidence, whether or not you can prove that I have been disadvantaged, Cabot are unable to show either that the alleged debt exists and that they have legal authority to collect this.
Yours faithfully,

So, I think its pretty hard for them to say that they didnt know what I was after. This is particularly so as in a letter of 20th november from Cabot, they tell me

• there is a copy of a notice of assignment from Vanquis confirming that they own the debt (there was!) - so at least they had read it.
• that there is no requirement under s78/77 of the CCA to provide a copy of a default notice, which of course is true, even I know that. BUT, I THINK there is a duty under a SAR request? Yes?

It seems to be here that things go wrong - and I should have noticed - as they refer to my request for a copy of my credit agreement under the CCA.
Anyhow, the situation seems to be that

1. I made a SAR request of Vanquis
2. this somehow was morphed into a S77/78 request, even though I think it was made clear to them what was wanted and Vanquis got a tenner

What I am not sure about is how to proceed

1. I could - as you suggested Ida - hit them with the non-compliance letter; OR
2. write to them pointing to the error of their ways ("no not a s77, but a SAR, please respond")

Comments on this?
Secondly, they have sold the debt without notice of assignment - never been involved in one like this before - does it matter to a material degree or now they have corrected it, everything is fine?
Lastly, I am practically certain that they never sent either a notice of default or termination but went ahead and sold the account anyway. I seem to remember that there are pretty serious consequences from this?
As always, advice is very welcome
SFU

[seriously fed up]

bump

[IdaInFife]

go via non compliance - then that way if they still fail you then make a complaint to the ICO

[seriously fed up]

Thanks Ida - letter being sent off to both Vanquis and Cabot pointing to their failings
Here's a funny one. Got an automated call today from AIC (nothing to do with this one) telling me that I should phone "Miss Black". Strange thing is that I got a call from them about 10 days ago telling me that I should phone "Mr White". Perhaps, if I hang on in long enough, I might get to speak to Captain Scarlet.
Its actually an old MBNA one that I know they wont have an agreement for - I have asked them any number of times for it. But - according to Mr White - they have written to me, but - HONESTLY - i have not had a word from them, so could be interesting. I just wonder in what roundabout way they will ask for an address - though they have a phone number. Very odd!
Thanks again for the advice

[seriously fed up]

ok, just had a response from Cabot which, even by their standards looks pretty remarkable (copy attached). Main points seem to be

1. I wrote to them in October with a CCA request. I did - it was a reminder that in my view what they sent me in March following a CCA request was not compliant.However, that notwithstanding, the SAR was sent in November, and, if you check above, I think you would have to agree that I couldnt have been clearer about what this is about. Cabot are clearly trying to make out that the SAR has no implication for them, though - see fourth last paragraph that while I am in correspondence with Vaquis they will endeavour to collect. As the owner of the debt (though see below) can they do this?
2. more remarkable is the notice of assignment, which is dated 25/2/2010, but someone at Cabot has written in pencil on top "sent originally 5th October 2009". Yet their letter to me today says that Vanquis didnt terminate the account till 31st December 2010. So, how it looks to me is that Cabot have been trying to collect on an account which they claim was assigned to them on/before 5th Octber 2009, but which wasnt terminated by Vanquis till 31st December 2009. I dont think they can do this? Am I right? If so, what are the consequences for them?
3. Cabot's "hello" letter (also sent on 5th October) includes as its first term that this letter acts as a notice of assignment!

I think that is about it, but what I would REALLY appreciate comment on - in order of importance - is

• can Vanquis sell an account (on/before 5th October) which has not been terminated (till 31st December)? I have this in writing from them.
• If they cant, what are the consequences for them of doing so? Are there any?
• they didnt reply to the CCA request (NOT the SAR - that hasnt produced anything yet) till 5th February, but I note from the papers that they sent that they have been adding interest since October. Can they do this?
• while Vanquis get their act together with the SAR, can Cabot engage in collection activity?

As always, comments (or better still answers/ povs) are very welcome
SFU

[IdaInFife]

yes, they can pass the account on , it's just that they cannot ask for the full balance unless the DN has been sent and the agreement terminated.

above

re interest depends if the agreement allows interest to be added after termination


yes they can, as SAR is not a dispute of an account- you certainly could write to them requesting to hold action on the account until you have the account info your require

[seriously fed up]

oh, brown smelly stuff!
In that case I would probably look at doing a F&F. Never done this before. Any good advice/ letters/ places to look - esp re Cabot? Ta

[seriously fed up]

Very gentle and polite bump.
I have found these two letters and was going to "amalgamate them". Are there any points I should correct in either of them?
More pertinently, bearing in mind what they have - see thread - any suggestions about

1. what level to start at?
2. what level they are likely to be looking for?

Cheers
SFU

[Your Address]

June 28, 2006

The Loan Company
Company House,
Church Street,
Newtown,
Kent,
R1 7HG
Dear Sir/Madam
Re: Account/Reference Number 4563210025897412
We write with reference to the money which you are claiming on the above account.
We can confirm that we are unable to offer to pay the money which we owe in full. However, by relying on the good will of other family members, I can raise and I want to offer this as an ex−gratia payment in Full and final settlement of the account. This offer is made on the clear understanding that, if accepted, neither you nor any other company you may be associated with or have dealings with, will take any other action to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever and that we will be released for all liability.
We also request that, if accepted, you will make an entry on a credit reference agency file relating to the above account as "satisfied" in full.
Payment can be made within 1 m onthof receiving your written agreement of this offer and method of payment.
We look forward to receiving your reply.
Yours faithfully


While admitting no liability for the account and the sum claimed as owing, I am willing to offer the sum of £xx as an ex-gratia payment in full and final settlement of the account.
This offer is made on the clear understanding that neither you nor any associate company will take any further action to attempt to enforce or pursue this debt in any way whatsoever and that any and all liability on our behalf will be fully discharged on receipt of the above stated monies.
This offer is made on the condition that of all adverse entries regarding this account are removed from our credit files with the credit reference agencies.
Payment can be made within 2 weeks of receiving your written confirmation of your agreement of this offer and the subsequent terms of the offer. Please also identify your prefered method of payment and the details of making said payment.
Please note this offer will expire on (date - give them a couple of weeks) if no letter of unconditional acceptance is forthcoming and may not be repeated. This offer is not open to negotiation.
We look forward to receiving your reply.

[IdaInFife]

any default notice yet?