puggtiracer V Woolwich

puggtiracer · 13th July 2007, 23:49

Hi all,

I'm new here so please be gentle!

I'm in the process of reclaiming 6 years autolinker.com autolinking image

of unfair bank penalties, sorry charges, and currently we are at the stage of waiting 14 days (deadline for the Woolwich is 16th July). This is for 2 bank accounts.

The first one is for a joint account between me and my girlfriend. The ammount claimed is £650. They have rejected my request for payment on that (we stand by our terms and conditions autolinker.com autolinking image

etc....).

The second one is for a sole account in my girlfriend's name with the Wooliwich for something like £2100. Following our request for payment, they offered £1650 as a GOGW back in June. I called them to see if they would increase it, since the account was already £300 O/D thanks to their charges. They declined so I told them I'd see them in court. Then at the start of July, Barclays contacted us to offer £1750. In the same post delivery, the Woolwich contacted us to offer £1645.

Anyways, I signed up to this wonderful site and printed an adapted N1 claim form and submitted it. They have not yet submitted a defence or acknowledgement, and the deadline is Monday. With 8% APR, the total equates to £3400. All being well, we will win by default - time will tell.

I have also taken my story to the local press http://www.meltontimes.co.uk/ViewArt...icleid=3025971 - READ ALL ABOUT IT! The story is slightly misleading in that it appears I have only had one single charge but it maybe depends on how it is read?

I'll keep you all posted on developments as and when, but I am away next week (my girlfriend will take the forms into court for me) so any response from me will be delayed.

welshcakes · 14th July 2007, 12:12

Hi Paul

WAY TO GO! That'll be one for the grandchildren's Scrapbook. Well done on you for kicking up a bit of dust.

Will be fascinated to see what comes through your mail box. Hopefully Emma is online to respond if anything manifests this week.

.... and thank you for the plug - CAG is a growing Power and it's always great to know that each new member means one more person will be getting justice.

puggtiracer · 21st July 2007, 16:55

Hi,

Turns out that the Woolwich/Barclays submitted a defence on 11th July but due to postal strike action, we didn't receive notification untill Tuesday just gone (17 July 07).

Anyways, if they want a 'fight', I'm happy to oblige! They've got 28 days from the 16th to sort things out but I'm pretty sure it won't be us backing down!

puggtiracer · 25th July 2007, 18:34

Today I went into the county court autolinker.com autolinking image

and requested Barclays/Woolwich defence, which they handed to me (saved time on postage).

In the defence, they state that they have the right to charge us £30 for a UC (unpaid direct debit autolinker.com autolinking image

) and the current fine (sorry meant 'fee') is £35 - will this make a difference?

Also, point 1 on their defence reads as follows:

"The Particulars of Claim do not provide full details or particulars of the account in question and/or the precise charges alleged to have been unlawful, or the date thereof."

However, on our N1, the PARTICULARS OF CLAIM states:

"1. The Claimant (girfriends name) has a Current Account 2xxxxxxxx ("The Account") with the Defendent which was opened on or April 2003 ( <--- typo autolinker.com autolinking image

on original N1)
1a. The Claimants had a joint 'Open Plan' Current Account 2xxxxxxxx ("the Open Plan Account") with the Defendant which was opened on or around April 2001 and closed on or around September 2003 "

Point 3 further states:

"A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim"

All text was copy-and-pasted from this site for the N1.

Are we in trouble with this or is it just Barclays using the same MS Word template for all leters?

The rest of their defence seems pretty standard "We're allowed to do it.... T&C's...." etc.

Point 11 of their defence made me smile.....
"......the Defendant has nonetheless suffered loss and damage......."

welshcakes · 25th July 2007, 18:43

Hi Pugg

I think you've read it coreectly that this has been one of their Standard Defences and in your case, they printed out the wrong standard Defence (they have at least four that I've read on here).

As long as your POC for N1 contained all iot should and you provided 3 SOC copies with your 3 N1 copies, the Defence is toothless.

If the judge wants any amendments or extension of the POC you've submitted, he/she will order it.

Barclays need to pay a little bit of attention

puggtiracer · 25th July 2007, 18:50

POC and SOC?

Sorry, I'm new

Just in the process of sorting out a court bundle etc....

welshcakes · 25th July 2007, 19:01

POC = Particulars of Claim
SOC = Schedule of Charges

puggtiracer · 25th July 2007, 19:05

Thanks for that.

As I said before, I filled in the N1 using copy-and-paste with the correct text from this site.

The charges were attached for both accounts.

Surely if they have filed the wrong defence, they will lose, since they are claiming we gave them NO DETAILS for the POC, when it can clearly be seen that we did?

welshcakes · 25th July 2007, 19:11

No, their Defence can't be Struck Out for that, besides, the core argument in their Defence doesn't rest on that first point so it's mute as far as reasoning is concerned.

No point in getting too uptight about it however frustrating their unprofessionalism may seem. The fact is they've put in a Standardised Defence but on the strength of that, the judge may also not look properly at the POC & note a SOC has already been attached, and may even order for it to be sent again.

This would be a pain but no big deal.

I'd just let it rest and wait to hear from the court

puggtiracer · 26th July 2007, 18:28

Just wondering - is it worth me contacting the bank with some sort of proposal along the lines of:

"As you can see I'm taking you to court - perhaps we could settle this without any further embarresment to your good selves since your defence would not justify your charges........."

....or words to that effect?

welshcakes · 26th July 2007, 19:10

Hi pugg

My personal advice is to save yourself the price of the phone call autolinker.com autolinking image

/stamp. Until it gets close to hearing, the response you get will be robot-mode, not negotiation-mode

puggtiracer · 28th July 2007, 23:16

To be honest I'm now thinking of dropping the case (I don't currently work so no court costs have been lost) and accepting their offer.

What would you recomend? I need the money pretty soon and the vast majority of my charges are UC (bounced DD). Only about 80 quid or so is OD.

If I could continue on the basis that I am looking to reclaim DD charges, then I'll fight in court. Otherwise, I am simply not prepared to wait 2 or 3 years....

I'm pretty sure this question will crop up a thousand times in the comming days!

welshcakes · 29th July 2007, 12:35

Hi Pugg

I doubt very much that their offer is still open - they certainly have no obligation to reinstigate it and no incentive to do so either. From their perspective, you refused offer but do not now want to pursue the matter through court either.

I guess it's worth a go however be very careful about how you word your next approach to them and do not discontinue any action unless you get a response in writing that they agree to settle without further litigation.

It is a personal choice Pugg and you have to weigh up all the unknowns; we do not know how long a test case autolinker.com autolinking image

will take, 8% is accruing daily until settlement, the precedent may be that the charges are illegal, it may be that they are perfectly justified (injustice has been known to paint our legislation before) or a capped figure for penalties may be set.

In any event, please prepare for Barclays to respond negatively ie that they made an offer andyou refused it so it's no longer an option.

puggtiracer · 29th July 2007, 18:27

My understanding is that they have to honour their GOGW's for 2 months as they have signed an agreement to that effect.

Although I turned down their first offer, they sent me two more offers which I received the same dayI took the N1 into court - one from Woolwich and one from Barclays. One was about £1750 and the other about £1650.

Maybe it's worth noting that all of my charges are direct debit autolinker.com autolinking image

bounce fees and not overdraft autolinker.com autolinking image

so maybe the stay might not apply due to that?

welshcakes · 29th July 2007, 18:51

My apologies, I dodn't know you had not rejected the other offers when you started court action.

If you have yet to respond to the two further offers, then that certainly puts an angle for you and yes, Barclays is currently stating that it will continue to honour offers that are regarded as still 'open' and awaiting response from customer.

As to the defintion of the test case autolinker.com autolinking image

ie whether it is purely concerned with overdraft autolinker.com autolinking image

Fees or whether this terminology encompasses charges for bounced DD etc, is still to be outlined in the Particulars of the Case being brought by OFT.

puggtiracer · 29th July 2007, 18:56

BRAINWAVE.......

We're claiming for two seperate accounts on one N1 - the offer was on the account that owes us the most money.

On the other account, they declined to offer us anything so I may just accept the offer for the 'big' account and for the other one, keep the claim running.

I'm pretty sure this would be agreed by the court - any coments?

puggtiracer · 29th July 2007, 18:56

No need to appologise - you've been a great help!

welshcakes · 29th July 2007, 19:15

Go for it pugg

If you have faxing facility, this is the securest way of proving that they receive your agreement to their offer (and date stamps it in the process). If you have the original offer to sign and return, I would still cross out the bit about confidentiality as we always recommend.

Also, make sure you change the wording from 'your claim' to 'this claim'. Also, I would make a copy of your acceptance and put it in to the court with a covering letter stating that agreement to settle has been reached and you will be in a position to submit a Notice of Discontinuance upon the funds clearing .... it gets it all recorded onto your court file, just incase!

puggtiracer · 29th July 2007, 19:36

The only thing is.....I don't want to discontinue action on the other account - they offered me nothing on that one in the first place so I've nothing to lose.

Would I perhaps need to resumbit an N1 with revised POC?

welshcakes · 29th July 2007, 20:06

Hi pugg

If you dealt with the two accounts on the one claim, then your letter to the court will state that agreement has been reached upon the matter of A/C .... and where agreement is similarly arrived at upon the matter of A/c ..., you will of course immediately submit a Notice of Discontinuance.

This way you are protecting the claim as a whole but informing the court of relevant progress. IF you subsequently get a cheque through for the one account settlement, you will follow up with a further clarifying letter to the court (as you are obliged to) advising that part settlement has been received.

13th July 2007, 23:49	#1 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder Is your bank avoiding its debts Data disclosure poll Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	puggtiracer V Woolwich Hi all, I'm new here so please be gentle! I'm in the process of reclaiming 6 years of unfair bank penalties, sorry charges, and currently we are at the stage of waiting 14 days (deadline for the Woolwich is 16th July). This is for 2 bank accounts. The first one is for a joint account between me and my girlfriend. The ammount claimed is £650. They have rejected my request for payment on that (we stand by our terms and conditions etc....). The second one is for a sole account in my girlfriend's name with the Wooliwich for something like £2100. Following our request for payment, they offered £1650 as a GOGW back in June. I called them to see if they would increase it, since the account was already £300 O/D thanks to their charges. They declined so I told them I'd see them in court. Then at the start of July, Barclays contacted us to offer £1750. In the same post delivery, the Woolwich contacted us to offer £1645. Anyways, I signed up to this wonderful site and printed an adapted N1 claim form and submitted it. They have not yet submitted a defence or acknowledgement, and the deadline is Monday. With 8% APR, the total equates to £3400. All being well, we will win by default - time will tell. I have also taken my story to the local press http://www.meltontimes.co.uk/ViewArt...icleid=3025971 - READ ALL ABOUT IT! The story is slightly misleading in that it appears I have only had one single charge but it maybe depends on how it is read? I'll keep you all posted on developments as and when, but I am away next week (my girlfriend will take the forms into court for me) so any response from me will be delayed.

14th July 2007, 12:12	#2 (permalink)
welshcakes Classic Account Holder Where else can you earn 8% interest on your money? Start your County Court claim NOW!!! Cagger since : Nov 2006 I am in: Wales Posts: 1,005	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Hi Paul WAY TO GO! That'll be one for the grandchildren's Scrapbook. Well done on you for kicking up a bit of dust. Will be fascinated to see what comes through your mail box. Hopefully Emma is online to respond if anything manifests this week. .... and thank you for the plug - CAG is a growing Power and it's always great to know that each new member means one more person will be getting justice.

21st July 2007, 16:55	#3 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder Protect your signature with SignGuard Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Hi, Turns out that the Woolwich/Barclays submitted a defence on 11th July but due to postal strike action, we didn't receive notification untill Tuesday just gone (17 July 07). Anyways, if they want a 'fight', I'm happy to oblige! They've got 28 days from the 16th to sort things out but I'm pretty sure it won't be us backing down!

25th July 2007, 18:34	#4 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder We need funds Please donate something Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Today I went into the county court and requested Barclays/Woolwich defence, which they handed to me (saved time on postage). In the defence, they state that they have the right to charge us £30 for a UC (unpaid direct debit) and the current fine (sorry meant 'fee') is £35 - will this make a difference? Also, point 1 on their defence reads as follows: "The Particulars of Claim do not provide full details or particulars of the account in question and/or the precise charges alleged to have been unlawful, or the date thereof." However, on our N1, the PARTICULARS OF CLAIM states: "1. The Claimant (girfriends name) has a Current Account 2xxxxxxxx ("The Account") with the Defendent which was opened on or April 2003 ( <--- typo on original N1) 1a. The Claimants had a joint 'Open Plan' Current Account 2xxxxxxxx ("the Open Plan Account") with the Defendant which was opened on or around April 2001 and closed on or around September 2003 " Point 3 further states: "A list of the charges applied is attached to these particulars of claim" All text was copy-and-pasted from this site for the N1. Are we in trouble with this or is it just Barclays using the same MS Word template for all leters? The rest of their defence seems pretty standard "We're allowed to do it.... T&C's...." etc. Point 11 of their defence made me smile..... "......the Defendant has nonetheless suffered loss and damage......."

25th July 2007, 18:43	#5 (permalink)
welshcakes Classic Account Holder Worried about companies stealing your signature? Use our new digital signature service Cagger since : Nov 2006 I am in: Wales Posts: 1,005	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Hi Pugg I think you've read it coreectly that this has been one of their Standard Defences and in your case, they printed out the wrong standard Defence (they have at least four that I've read on here). As long as your POC for N1 contained all iot should and you provided 3 SOC copies with your 3 N1 copies, the Defence is toothless. If the judge wants any amendments or extension of the POC you've submitted, he/she will order it. Barclays need to pay a little bit of attention

25th July 2007, 18:50	#6 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder Worried about your signature being copied onto CCAs etc? Use SignGuard Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich POC and SOC? Sorry, I'm new Just in the process of sorting out a court bundle etc....

25th July 2007, 19:01	#7 (permalink)
welshcakes Classic Account Holder Protect your signature with SignGuard Cagger since : Nov 2006 I am in: Wales Posts: 1,005	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich POC = Particulars of Claim SOC = Schedule of Charges

25th July 2007, 19:05	#8 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder eBay user? Find misspellings and zero-bid items Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Thanks for that. As I said before, I filled in the N1 using copy-and-paste with the correct text from this site. The charges were attached for both accounts. Surely if they have filed the wrong defence, they will lose, since they are claiming we gave them NO DETAILS for the POC, when it can clearly be seen that we did?

25th July 2007, 19:11	#9 (permalink)
welshcakes Classic Account Holder Protect your signature with SignGuard Cagger since : Nov 2006 I am in: Wales Posts: 1,005	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich No, their Defence can't be Struck Out for that, besides, the core argument in their Defence doesn't rest on that first point so it's mute as far as reasoning is concerned. No point in getting too uptight about it however frustrating their unprofessionalism may seem. The fact is they've put in a Standardised Defence but on the strength of that, the judge may also not look properly at the POC & note a SOC has already been attached, and may even order for it to be sent again. This would be a pain but no big deal. I'd just let it rest and wait to hear from the court __________________ 3 Active Claims: Barclays Refund of Bank Charges (Sole account) - Applied to lift court ordered Stay Barclays Refund of Bank Charges (Joint account) - Awaiting court date Barclays Refund of Bank Charges (Joint account) Pre-6 yrs- LBA sent. 3 Wins : Barclays t/a The Woolwich (Data Protection Act breach costs & compliance) HSBC (on behalf of brother) Settled Out of Court - £3,874.76 Alliance & Leicester (on behalf of friend) Settled Out of Court - £723.41

26th July 2007, 18:28	#10 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder Worried about your signature being copied onto CCAs etc? Use SignGuard Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Just wondering - is it worth me contacting the bank with some sort of proposal along the lines of: "As you can see I'm taking you to court - perhaps we could settle this without any further embarresment to your good selves since your defence would not justify your charges........." ....or words to that effect?

26th July 2007, 19:10	#11 (permalink)
welshcakes Classic Account Holder Protect your signature with SignGuard Cagger since : Nov 2006 I am in: Wales Posts: 1,005	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Hi pugg My personal advice is to save yourself the price of the phone call/stamp. Until it gets close to hearing, the response you get will be robot-mode, not negotiation-mode

28th July 2007, 23:16	#12 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder Try our eBay sniping service Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich To be honest I'm now thinking of dropping the case (I don't currently work so no court costs have been lost) and accepting their offer. What would you recomend? I need the money pretty soon and the vast majority of my charges are UC (bounced DD). Only about 80 quid or so is OD. If I could continue on the basis that I am looking to reclaim DD charges, then I'll fight in court. Otherwise, I am simply not prepared to wait 2 or 3 years.... I'm pretty sure this question will crop up a thousand times in the comming days!

29th July 2007, 12:35	#13 (permalink)
welshcakes Classic Account Holder Protect your signature with SignGuard Cagger since : Nov 2006 I am in: Wales Posts: 1,005	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Hi Pugg I doubt very much that their offer is still open - they certainly have no obligation to reinstigate it and no incentive to do so either. From their perspective, you refused offer but do not now want to pursue the matter through court either. I guess it's worth a go however be very careful about how you word your next approach to them and do not discontinue any action unless you get a response in writing that they agree to settle without further litigation. It is a personal choice Pugg and you have to weigh up all the unknowns; we do not know how long a test case will take, 8% is accruing daily until settlement, the precedent may be that the charges are illegal, it may be that they are perfectly justified (injustice has been known to paint our legislation before) or a capped figure for penalties may be set. In any event, please prepare for Barclays to respond negatively ie that they made an offer andyou refused it so it's no longer an option.

29th July 2007, 18:27	#14 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder Protect your signature with SignGuard Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich My understanding is that they have to honour their GOGW's for 2 months as they have signed an agreement to that effect. Although I turned down their first offer, they sent me two more offers which I received the same dayI took the N1 into court - one from Woolwich and one from Barclays. One was about £1750 and the other about £1650. Maybe it's worth noting that all of my charges are direct debit bounce fees and not overdraft so maybe the stay might not apply due to that?

29th July 2007, 18:51	#15 (permalink)
welshcakes Classic Account Holder Protect your signature with SignGuard Cagger since : Nov 2006 I am in: Wales Posts: 1,005	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich My apologies, I dodn't know you had not rejected the other offers when you started court action. If you have yet to respond to the two further offers, then that certainly puts an angle for you and yes, Barclays is currently stating that it will continue to honour offers that are regarded as still 'open' and awaiting response from customer. As to the defintion of the test case ie whether it is purely concerned with overdraft Fees or whether this terminology encompasses charges for bounced DD etc, is still to be outlined in the Particulars of the Case being brought by OFT.

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29th July 2007, 18:56	#16 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder Try our eBay sniping service Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich BRAINWAVE....... We're claiming for two seperate accounts on one N1 - the offer was on the account that owes us the most money. On the other account, they declined to offer us anything so I may just accept the offer for the 'big' account and for the other one, keep the claim running. I'm pretty sure this would be agreed by the court - any coments?

29th July 2007, 18:56	#17 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder We need funds Please donate something Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich No need to appologise - you've been a great help!

29th July 2007, 19:15	#18 (permalink)
welshcakes Classic Account Holder Try our eBay sniping service Cagger since : Nov 2006 I am in: Wales Posts: 1,005	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Go for it pugg If you have faxing facility, this is the securest way of proving that they receive your agreement to their offer (and date stamps it in the process). If you have the original offer to sign and return, I would still cross out the bit about confidentiality as we always recommend. Also, make sure you change the wording from 'your claim' to 'this claim'. Also, I would make a copy of your acceptance and put it in to the court with a covering letter stating that agreement to settle has been reached and you will be in a position to submit a Notice of Discontinuance upon the funds clearing .... it gets it all recorded onto your court file, just incase!

29th July 2007, 19:36	#19 (permalink)
puggtiracer Basic Account Holder Worried about your signature being copied onto CCAs etc? Use SignGuard Cagger since : Jun 2007 Posts: 22	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich The only thing is.....I don't want to discontinue action on the other account - they offered me nothing on that one in the first place so I've nothing to lose. Would I perhaps need to resumbit an N1 with revised POC?

29th July 2007, 20:06	#20 (permalink)
welshcakes Classic Account Holder Your bank owes you an awful lot more money than you realise See here Cagger since : Nov 2006 I am in: Wales Posts: 1,005	Re: puggtiracer V Woolwich Hi pugg If you dealt with the two accounts on the one claim, then your letter to the court will state that agreement has been reached upon the matter of A/C .... and where agreement is similarly arrived at upon the matter of A/c ..., you will of course immediately submit a Notice of Discontinuance. This way you are protecting the claim as a whole but informing the court of relevant progress. IF you subsequently get a cheque through for the one account settlement, you will follow up with a further clarifying letter to the court (as you are obliged to) advising that part settlement has been received.